Buying wins - is it criminal?

[FastforaSlowGuy]

VN is reporting that Vino and Kolobnev are charged by Belgian officials with bribery, stemming from allegations that Vinokourov paid 150K Euros to take the win in the 2010 LBL.

Making deals on the road goes back a long way in cycling, sometimes for money other times to gain loyalty in the middle of a Grand Tour.

Where's the line between tradition (albeit a shady one) and criminality?

[oldpotatoe]

VN is reporting that Vino and Kolobnev are charged by Belgian officials with bribery, stemming from allegations that Vinokourov paid 150K Euros to take the win in the 2010 LBL.

Making deals on the road goes back a long way in cycling, sometimes for money other times to gain loyalty in the middle of a Grand Tour.

Where's the line between tradition (albeit a shady one) and criminality?

This will be interesting to watch. I'm SURE Eddy, Roger, others, never did this.... Wink, wink, nod.

[CunegoFan]

Ridiculous. What happens when Kolobnev says he felt that Vino was stronger, he did not want to bury himself and end up with nothing, and he thought the 150K was probably the best he could get that day? If that is a crime then many breaks won't get to the finish.

[harlond]

Ridiculous. What happens when Kolobnev says he felt that Vino was stronger, he did not want to bury himself and end up with nothing, and he thought the 150K was probably the best he could get that day? If that is a crime then many breaks won't get to the finish.The allegation here is that Kolobnov threw the race. And that is a crime, at least in most places.

It doesn't matter that Kolobnov thought he might lose anyway. Maybe the Black Sox thought they might lose anyway. Maybe CCNY thought they might lose anyway. But when you get paid to lose, you're throwing the game, and that's a crime.

That's different from deals between breakmates in a stage race (though some of those are a bit dodgy, too). A stage race has many different competitions to win, so a rider can lose the stage and still advance his own cause. That sort of calculus can't justify throwing the race.

[GScot]

Let the bookies sort it out.

[Mark McM]

VN is reporting that Vino and Kolobnev are charged by Belgian officials with bribery, stemming from allegations that Vinokourov paid 150K Euros to take the win in the 2010 LBL.

Making deals on the road goes back a long way in cycling, sometimes for money other times to gain loyalty in the middle of a Grand Tour.

Where's the line between tradition (albeit a shady one) and criminality?

In countries in which betting on sports is allowed, manipulating results is a considered a crime. For example, his has been the justification the Italian police have used to conduct raids on teams looking for PEDs, since there is legalized betting on bicycle races.

[FastforaSlowGuy]

The allegation here is that Kolobnov threw the race. And that is a crime, at least in most places.

It doesn't matter that Kolobnov thought he might lose anyway. Maybe the Black Sox thought they might lose anyway. Maybe CCNY thought they might lose anyway. But when you get paid to lose, you're throwing the game, and that's a crime.

That's different from deals between breakmates in a stage race (though some of those are a bit dodgy, too). A stage race has many different competitions to win, so a rider can lose the stage and still advance his own cause. That sort of calculus can't justify throwing the race.

Um, a stage win is a "race win," as far as I've seen. I'm pretty sure when people tally their career victories, they don't leave out Grand Tour stages. So why is throwing LBL different than throwing stage X of the Giro? Should both be prosecuted?

[oldpotatoe]

The allegation here is that Kolobnov threw the race. And that is a crime, at least in most places.

It doesn't matter that Kolobnov thought he might lose anyway. Maybe the Black Sox thought they might lose anyway. Maybe CCNY thought they might lose anyway. But when you get paid to lose, you're throwing the game, and that's a crime.

That's different from deals between breakmates in a stage race (though some of those are a bit dodgy, too). A stage race has many different competitions to win, so a rider can lose the stage and still advance his own cause. That sort of calculus can't justify throwing the race.

Is it a crime? It is unethical and a true crime in Europe(sporting fraud) but I don't think it's 'criminal' in the USA but not a lawyer.

[FastforaSlowGuy]

In countries in which betting on sports is allowed, manipulating results is a considered a crime. For example, his has been the justification the Italian police have used to conduct raids on teams looking for PEDs, since there is legalized betting on bicycle races.

I hear ya, but I have to imagine there's a lot of stage "gifting" going on at the Giro. I don't see police raiding hotels for that.

I find the whole practice a little distasteful, but it's got its own weird history in the sport.

[carpediemracing]

Stage win "gifts" may be tactical. For example if I am a GT leader and I have a weak team then I'll gift as many stages as possible to gain some allies (not chasing a break, if there is a break with me in it then not sprinting really hard at the line, etc). Even in the lowly Cat 3 races I do there are instances where a team will all of a sudden ally themselves with a non-teammate rider. I've been on both sides, both giving myself to a different team's rider as well as having a team roll up to me and say that they're working for me (this in a multi week series). The same friendly riders will fight me tooth and nail for a wheel in a one day race.

I understand how betting on a race can make any shenanigans in the race "official". For example Merckx (The Eddy) bet on Landis to win the Tour after Landis lost all that time. It would behove Merckx to try and help Landis since now he had money in the game.

I think it's sort of curious that Belgium is doing this. When my parents lived there they were told to leave a big bill in their passport when the immigration folks came to check their paperwork. As they were not used to this kind of thing they didn't the first time or two. Their paperwork was found to be not in order. Panicked by the thought of being deported and doing it all over again they did the bill thing. The same paperwork was found in order.

Similar but much more significant things happened in a different European country. In Holland it didn't happen at all.

[saab2000]

One is only in a position to buy a race if that same rider is in a position to pretty much guarantee 2nd place. And you're only in a position to sell a race if you're pretty much guaranteed to win it. I'm not saying doesn't stink, but I think it's less common than one might imagine. No doubt that it happens though.

This case again proves that cash is king. Show me the Benjamins, not the account number and routing number.

[rcnute]

Guess Belgian courts don't have enough to do.

Ryan

[Mark McM]

One is only in a position to buy a race if that same rider is in a position to pretty much guarantee 2nd place. And you're only in a position to sell a race if you're pretty much guaranteed to win it. I'm not saying doesn't stink, but I think it's less common than one might imagine. No doubt that it happens though.

Or it could just be a shrewd investment strategy to hedge your bets:

Armstrong bought "Million Dollar" Triple Crown victory, claims Gaggioli (http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/armstrong-bought-million-dollar-triple-crown-victory-claims-gaggioli)

[chiasticon]

one thing worth remembering is that the LBL payout for first is 20k euros. that's a whole lot less than the 150k vino paid for it. so it's a lot different from saying "look, work with me and i'll let you get the stage so i keep the overall" or, for you amateur racers: "ÿou take the money, i take the upgrade points." you're not making an alliance to assure mutual success from the available winnings. you're adding to the pot; a LOT. that's buying a win. that's bribery.

[CunegoFan]

The allegation here is that Kolobnov threw the race. And that is a crime, at least in most places.

It doesn't matter that Kolobnov thought he might lose anyway. Maybe the Black Sox thought they might lose anyway. Maybe CCNY thought they might lose anyway. But when you get paid to lose, you're throwing the game, and that's a crime.

That's different from deals between breakmates in a stage race (though some of those are a bit dodgy, too). A stage race has many different competitions to win, so a rider can lose the stage and still advance his own cause. That sort of calculus can't justify throwing the race.

It sure does matter if Kolobnev did not think he could win. He would have little motivation to continue working. If he gives up and drifts back into the chase pack is that throwing the race? Should that be criminal?

[CunegoFan]

One is only in a position to buy a race if that same rider is in a position to pretty much guarantee 2nd place. And you're only in a position to sell a race if you're pretty much guaranteed to win it. I'm not saying doesn't stink, but I think it's less common than one might imagine. No doubt that it happens though.

This case again proves that cash is king. Show me the Benjamins, not the account number and routing number.

This is exactly backwards. The rider in position to take 2nd is the one in position to "sell" the race. He is the one who needs to get something out of day since he is not going to win. If he is strong enough to win then he is winning that race. The only time this does not apply is some podunk race that no one cares about.

Kolobnev has a long history of near misses with few wins. He has almost won the "big one" multiple times only to end up on a lower step of the podium. A win at LBL would have been financially huge for him. The gain in his future contracts would have been considerable. FInancially it would not make sense for Kolobnev to give away the win for 150K.

[nathanong87]

A win at LBL would have been financially huge for him. The gain in his future contracts would have been considerable. FInancially it would not make sense for Kolobnev to give away the win for 150K.

are u implying that he didn't? or just inferring that maybe he really didn't have it in the legs/mind to beat vino on the day and got whatever he could from that result.

i dont know if i 'care' about all this, but is another point.... whatever about those who attempt to buy (or sell wins) and the other riders dont. If a tree falls with noone around to hear it, does it really fall?

like selling a drug. Just the act of selling is illegal right? Not that any riders who say anything to the proper people... 'like omg mr official, number 192 just tried to bribe me!'.

Im not sure how this who thing can really be enforced because of all the factors that went into this. For them to even be the last two remaining and then the deal made, is pretty extraordinary. It's not like 1 team vs another and then a deal is made to throw a baseball game or something. So that's another thing.

[CunegoFan]

or just inferring that maybe he really didn't have it in the legs/mind to beat vino on the day and got whatever he could from that result.

This. That is how these things work.

A second would not have been worth much to Kolobnev because his previous times on the podium at big races meant he was already being paid as a potential winner. He was starting a new contract based on expectation that he would finally come good in the classics. He was in a position where he needed to fulfill those expectation. He would be a fool to give away an LBL he thought he could win for 150K. A win would have been worth much more.

[zachateseveryth]

I bought a race a couple weeks ago. It was the local training series, I was in a late 2 man move. I asked if the other rider was interested in the upgrade points on the line or the money. He said money so we worked a deal. He lets me take the win, I give him the cash. Not a big deal, we both get what we want, no one gets screwed.


Splitting prize money or gifting a stage to encourage cooperation is one thing. Handing out external money to get the result you want is criminal.

[saab2000]

This is exactly backwards. The rider in position to take 2nd is the one in position to "sell" the race. He is the one who needs to get something out of day since he is not going to win. If he is strong enough to win then he is winning that race. The only time this does not apply is some podunk race that no one cares about.

Kolobnev has a long history of near misses with few wins. He has almost won the "big one" multiple times only to end up on a lower step of the podium. A win at LBL would have been financially huge for him. The gain in his future contracts would have been considerable. FInancially it would not make sense for Kolobnev to give away the win for 150K.

If Kolobnev is only strong enough to finish 2nd against Vino, why would Vino offer to pay him tens of thousands of dollars to not win? Vino wins and doesn't have to pay. But if Vino is unsure of his strength he offers to pay to ensure Kolobnev doesn't chase him down.

If I know I'm stronger than someone else, there's no way I'm paying to buy the win. I can do it without paying. Likewise, if I know I'm off the front with a stronger rider but I really, really want a win I may offer to pay for it.

Not like any of this applies to normal riders.... but I'm curious about this case.

I too think it's a ludicrous case and that the justice system should fight actual crime. But that's another story.

[FastforaSlowGuy]

I bought a race a couple weeks ago. It was the local training series, I was in a late 2 man move. I asked if the other rider was interested in the upgrade points on the line or the money. He said money so we worked a deal. He lets me take the win, I give him the cash. Not a big deal, we both get what we want, no one gets screwed.


Splitting prize money or gifting a stage to encourage cooperation is one thing. Handing out external money to get the result you want is criminal.

I think it's tough to quantify the value of a win at LBL. Yeah, there's the prize money. But that's split with the team and staff, so it's just not the same as your situation. The monetary value for them is in their contract. They may have bonuses, and at the very least it could mean a big bump next time they sign. The lifetime value could easily be $150K or more.

[zmudshark]

Let the bookies sort it out.
That's what we did back in the day.

Money talks, BS has broken kneecaps.

[John H.]

Vino has bought other races. Watch the end of the London Olympic road race.
He has also been bought, Olympics in Sydney.

[CunegoFan]

If Kolobnev is only strong enough to finish 2nd against Vino, why would Vino offer to pay him tens of thousands of dollars to not win? Vino wins and doesn't have to pay. But if Vino is unsure of his strength he offers to pay to ensure Kolobnev doesn't chase him down.

It is not a payment not to win. It is payment to keep working. There was a chase pack that at one point closed to less than thirty seconds. It included Valverde, Gilbert, and Evans. If Vino goes to the line with those riders then he is not winning the sprint, and if Kolobnev does not keep working then he is not staying away. The man who thinks he will end up second has the leverage in that situation.

[saab2000]

Vino has bought other races. Watch the end of the London Olympic road race.
He has also been bought, Olympics in Sydney.

I very much doubt he bought the Olympic road race. I'd like to see evidence of this. It seems impossible to imagine that he paid off the remaining riders in the peloton.

It is not a payment not to win. It is payment to keep working. There was a chase pack that at one point closed to less than thirty seconds. It included Valverde, Gilbert, and Evans. If Vino went to the line with those riders then he is not winning the sprint, and if Kolobnev does not keep working then he is not staying away. The man who thinks he will end up second has the leverage in that situation.

Well, I can understand that. Second is better than fifth or sixth.

[tiretrax]

I very much doubt he bought the Olympic road race. I'd like to see evidence of this. It seems impossible to imagine that he paid off the remaining riders in the peloton.

There is a long history of purchased wins in cycling. Nothing new, just more scrutiny. The allegations of Vino buying the LBL victory for $150k were reported within days of the race. Remember - he was coming back from a very well publicized and disgraceful two year ban in which he was caught blood doping and dismissed from the TdF he was leading/contending.

Watch the 2012 olympic race ending and the call by the announcers - I remember clearly they wanted to know why the silver medalist slowed and looked back at the peloton in the wrong direction (not keeping an eye on Vino).

[christian]

Well, I can understand that. Second is better than fifth or sixth.And second and 150,000 EUR is better still.

[herb5998]

It's in the history, but the win also helped "rebuild" Vino's profile as he was returning from a doping ban (which he still never fully copped to), I think that, more than anything, was the reason behind the sell/buy of the win at LBL...

[1centaur]

Curious whether all the folks who don't care about paying for a cycling win also don't care about throwing baseball, football, basketball, soccer games, et. al?

What's the principle at work here that would distinguish from one to another? A sense of honor and fair play in society? Not undermining the gambling business? Letting down teammates? "It's just cycling among poor peasant boys?"

[nathanong87]

I bought a race a couple weeks ago. It was the local training series, I was in a late 2 man move. I asked if the other rider was interested in the upgrade points on the line or the money. He said money so we worked a deal. He lets me take the win, I give him the cash. Not a big deal, we both get what we want, no one gets screwed.


Splitting prize money or gifting a stage to encourage cooperation is one thing. Handing out external money to get the result you want is criminal.

really? in a training race? just beat him and take the money!

[John H.]

Watch the London race and tell me what you think-

I very much doubt he bought the Olympic road race. I'd like to see evidence of this. It seems impossible to imagine that he paid off the remaining riders in the peloton.



Well, I can understand that. Second is better than fifth or sixth.

[rounder]

When I was growing up, I was taught to be a good sport...and I believed that. I really liked the Olympics and college sports back then because it was about winning, but also about winning fair and not for money. To me, that is not what it is about these days ( I know that I am old). But, what does winning mean these days if you have to cheat to win.

[CunegoFan]

Watch the London race and tell me what you think-

I think Uran looked over the wrong shoulder and was jumped by a far more experienced and wily rider.

[CunegoFan]

Curious whether all the folks who don't care about paying for a cycling win also don't care about throwing baseball, football, basketball, soccer games, et. al?

What's the principle at work here that would distinguish from one to another? A sense of honor and fair play in society? Not undermining the gambling business? Letting down teammates? "It's just cycling among poor peasant boys?"

Cycling is not baseball, it is not football, and it is not basketball. It is a unique sport where the cooperation between competitors is often required to win.

Take this hypothetical. Imagine you are in a two man break with Cavendish. [Ignore for the moment the implausibility of Cav sticking his nose in to the wind outside of a few hundred meters from the finish.] You are 10K from the finish and two minutes ahead of a raging chase group. If the two of you work together then you might be able to get to the line before getting caught. Why should you bury yourself to keep ahead of the pack? You have no chance of beating Cav in the sprint and in cycling second is worthless.

[John H.]

Yes he did, then he went back to Columbia and bought a new house.

I think Uran looked over the wrong shoulder and was jumped by a far more experienced and wily rider.

[zachateseveryth]

really? in a training race? just beat him and take the money!

I wasn't going to beat him and didn't care about the $20.

[1centaur]

Cycling is not baseball, it is not football, and it is not basketball. It is a unique sport where the cooperation between competitors is often required to win.

Take this hypothetical. Imagine you are in a two man break with Cavendish. [Ignore for the moment the implausibility of Cav sticking his nose in to the wind outside of a few hundred meters from the finish.] You are 10K from the finish and two minutes ahead of a raging chase group. If the two of you work together then you might be able to get to the line before getting caught. Why should you bury yourself to keep ahead of the pack? You have no chance of beating Cav in the sprint and in cycling second is worthless.

You are talking about practical aspects of the sport, not about principle, which was my question. In basketball team A might have no chance to beat team B but they could work together to beat the established gambling spread, or in football a cornerback could run a step slower to let a wide receiver catch a long pass for a big touchdown and get paid later. I could introduce all sorts of practical scenarios where opponents could benefit by not trying their best and getting paid for it. Why should they not take those opportunities in every sport?

[FastforaSlowGuy]

When I was growing up, I was taught to be a good sport...and I believed that. I really liked the Olympics and college sports back then because it was about winning, but also about winning fair and not for money. To me, that is not what it is about these days ( I know that I am old). But, what does winning mean these days if you have to cheat to win.

However old you are, buying wins in cycling (or getting paid to cooperate, depending on how you look at it) is older.

[FastforaSlowGuy]

I wasn't going to beat him and didn't care about the $20.

So you bought a win in a race nobody (should) care about in order to beat a guy you couldn't otherwise beat so you can upgrade to race against stronger riders? Something there doesn't make sense.

Returning to the topic, I agree with Cunego that it's hard to make comparisons between two-team sports and a bike race with 20 teams where cooperation and competition get very blurry. What is the football analogy to a breakaway of 5 riders from 5 different teams?

Maybe I'm splitting hairs, but I'm less turned off by racers buying cooperation than buying a win. I know: same coin, different sides.

[harryschwartzma]

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-VR_nkuQ-EfU/UESruY1dE5I/AAAAAAAABQs/PCxhD4x-Uhc/s1600/rains.jpg

I think you are all overlooking the casual ubiquity of corruption in Europe. Americans sometimes don't see the utility of bending the rules a bit.

[93legendti]

Hard to compare sports where fans buy tickets to attend games and, other than a few select races and locations within those races, fans spectate for free.

Cycling races even have an award for last place-lantern rouge and riders have been known to go on suicidal breakaways just for tv coverage...

Who is truly damaged? The sponsors....yet they don't seem to be complaining.

[nathanong87]

Hard to compare sports where fans buy tickets to attend games and, other than a few select races and locations within those races, fans spectate for free.

Cycling races even have an award for last place-lantern rouge and riders have been known to go on suicidal breakaways just for tv coverage...

Who is truly damaged? The sponsors....yet they don't seem to be complaining.

why would astana care about what vino does. he's like their poster boy. He can do no wrong in their eyes!

[Mark McM]

Cycling is not baseball, it is not football, and it is not basketball. It is a unique sport where the cooperation between competitors is often required to win.

The difference is the intent and goal. In cycling, cooperating with competitors is a calculated risk, but the intent and goal is still to put yourself (or your team) in the best situation to win.

It is true that when riders cooperate we can't always know what their intent is - but if money changes hands, the intent becomes pretty clear.


Take this hypothetical. Imagine you are in a two man break with Cavendish. [Ignore for the moment the implausibility of Cav sticking his nose in to the wind outside of a few hundred meters from the finish.] You are 10K from the finish and two minutes ahead of a raging chase group. If the two of you work together then you might be able to get to the line before getting caught. Why should you bury yourself to keep ahead of the pack? You have no chance of beating Cav in the sprint and in cycling second is worthless.

Actually, while news coverage may concentrate mainly on winners, second place is not worthless, for several reasons. For one thing, it can demonstrate to your team that you are riding well, so they may select you for better races (or get you more money at contract time). But more importantly, it earns your team UCI points, which are important for team selections at major races. Some have argued that there have been more race crashes in the last decade or so due to the importance of UCI points for race selection, so riders are scrambling to get points at every opportunity (and taking extra risks to do it).