The results are in from an exciting day of racing in Leogang. In the Elite Men's race, Loic Bruni would take his second win of 2019 and would continue the French domination of the World Cup. Greg Minnaar would put down an amazing run that was so close to taking the top spot over Bruni. Troy Brosnan would be the only other rider to get with a second of the Frenchman's winning run and would get another podium finish in 2019. Danny Hart would put down a great run but would still be nearly two seconds off the pace. Despite his still injured ankle Aaron Gwin would prove his prowess on the Austrian track with a solid fifth-place finish.
In the Elite Women, Tracey Hannah would be crowned victorious with a commanding lead over the rest of the field. Privateer Nina Hoffmann would get her best ever result with a second place finish, just over two seconds behind Hannah. Kate Weatherly would cross the line third
9.360 behind, Marine Cabirou would come close to a top three finish but a crash would secure her a fourth-place finish. Veronika Widmann would complete the Elite Women's podium over 12 seconds off the leader's pace. Rachel Atherton would crash out on her race run and would finish 15th.
The Junior racing would be back to the usual suspects with Thibaut Daprela and Vali Holl both taking wins on the revised Leogang course. Vali Holl would dominate the Junior Women with a time that would have secured third place in the Elite category. Anna Newkirk and Mille Johnset would be within a second of each other but their times would sit almost 20 seconds off Holl's unstoppable run. In the Junior Men, Kye A'Hern would sit almost two seconds behind Daprela and would have a gap of over a second back to third-placed rider Matteo Iniguez.
Elite Men
1st. Loic Bruni: 3:16.132
2nd. Greg Minnaar: +0.324
3rd. Troy Brosnan: +0.746
4th. Danny Hart: +1.994
5th. Aaron Gwin: +2.418
Elite Women
1st. Tracey Hannah: 3:42.107
2nd. Nina Hoffmann: +2.435
3rd. Kate Weatherly: +9.360
4th. Marine Cabirou: +9.564
5th. Veronika Widmann: +12.085
Junior Men
1st. Thibaut Daprela: 3:23.950
2nd. Kye A'Hern: +1.963
3rd. Matteo Iniguez: +3.125
4th. Jamie Edmondson: +4.118
5th. Patrick Laffey: +4.829
Junior Women
1st. Vali Holl: 3:49.363
2nd. Anna Newkirk: +18.749
3rd. Mille Johnset: +19.266
4th. Cassie Voysey: +35.377
5th. Lauryne Chappaz: +36.342
Full ResultsElite Men
Elite Women
Junior Men
Junior Women
Live Race Updates:
2:00 am PDT The Elite Women will be on track from 3:30 am PDT // 12:30 CEST // 11:30 am BST // 22:30 NZST // 20:30 AEST
3:30 am PDT The first Elite Woman is on track.
3:34 am PDT Paula Zibasa sets a time of 4:08.478
3:35 am PDT Alia Marcellini goes nearly four seconds faster.
3:36 am PDT Sian A'Hern had a slow start but managed to make up a ton of time at the bottom of the track and goes into first, five seconds faster.
3:37 am PDT Emilie Siegenthaler is green most of the way down but seems to have lost a bit of time in the second half of the track and only goes 1.578 seconds faster.
3:38 am PDT Kate Weatherly had a great run and puts over six seconds into Siegenthaler's time.
3:43 am PDT Veronika Widmann is only a second back at split two.
3:45 am PDT Kate Weatherly holds her lead as Widmann goes into 2nd nearly three seconds off the pace.
3:45 am PDT Monika Hrastnik looks to be way off the pace. Nearly seven seconds back at split three.
3:47 am PDT Hrastnik goes into fifth.
3:49 am PDT Carina Cappellari couldn't top Weatherly and moves into fourth position.
3:50 am PDT Mariana Salazar is nearly four seconds off the current leader's pace at split three.
3:51 am PDT Salazar crosses the line in sixth place.
3:53 am PDT Camille Balanche sits in third place after going nearly four seconds back.
3:53 am PDT Raphaela Richter is less than a second back at split one.
3:54 am PDT Richter is up at split two!
3:55 am PDT Loses over two seconds on the jumps.
3:56 am PDT Richter loses more time and now sits in third.
3:56 am PDT Marine Cabirou is up by 1.480 at the first split.
3:58 am PDT Cabirou is nearly five seconds up!
3:59 am PDT She gains more time at split four, over five seconds up.
4:00 am PDT Marine Cabirou goes down!
4:00 am PDT She comes across the line just 0.204 back.
4:01 am PDT Nina Hoffmann is up at split one.
4:02 am PDT She extends her lead to four seconds at split two!
4:02 am PDT After the jumps she extends her lead by half a second.
4:03 am PDT Hoffmann find another second by split four.
4:04 am PDT Nina Hoffmann goes into first after an amazing run. Nearly seven seconds faster than Weatherly.
4:05 am PDT Rachel Atherton goes down!
4:06 am PDT She is 22 seconds back at split two.
4:06 am PDT Can Tracey Hannah take the win today?
4:08 am PDT Atherton goes into 14th position.
4:08 am PDT Tracey Hannah is just over a second up at the first split.
4:09 am PDT She gains another second!
4:10 am PDT Hannah loses time at the third split.
4:11 am PDT Loses even more time at split four.
4:11 am PDT Tracey Hannah takes the win in Leogang!
4:14 am PDT Elite Women top five: 1st. Tracey Hannah // 2nd. Nina Hoffmann // 3rd. Kate Weatherly // 4th. Marine Cabirou // 5th. Veronika Widmann //
4:15 am PDT The Elite Men will be on track in 15 minutes.
4:33 am PDT Phil Atwill sets the first time of the day: 3:26.125
4:34 am PDT Florent Payet goes nearly four seconds faster and into the hot seat.
4:38 am PDT Charlie Hatton is up at the first split.
4:40 am PDT Hatton goes just under a second back on Payet.
4:45 am PDT George Brannigan goes into second over a second off the current leader's pace.
4:48 am PDT Alex Marin was up at the first split but has dropped back slightly at the next one.
4:49 am PDT Wyn Master is over two seconds off the pace at split two.
4:50 am PDT Alex Marin is back in the green at the fourth split.
4:50 am PDT Marin loses a few hundredths of a second in the sprint to the finish and comes across the line second.
4:52 am PDT George Gannicott is nearly a second up at split one.
4:54 am PDT Gannicott loses a ton of time at the third split. Michael Jones is looking to be on a great run, 0.747 up at the second split.
4:56 am PDT After over 20 riders no one has found an answer to Florent Payet's run.
5:03 am PDT With the first 30 riders completing their race runs this is the current top five: 1st. Florent Payet // 2nd. Alex Marin // 3rd. Jack Moir // 4th. Loris Revelli // 5th. Baptiste Pierron //
5:13 am PDT Reece Wilson goes nearly a second faster at split one.
5:13 am PDT Wilson is still up at the second split.
5:14 am PDT He has extended his lead to over half a second at the next split.
5:15 am PDT Reece Wilson goes 1.582 seconds faster than Payet!
5:17 am PDT Matt Walker (GB) is over half a second faster at split two.
5:19 am PDT Walker drops back at the third split but gains some time over Wilson by split four.
5:19 am PDT Matt Walker goes into the hot seat.
5:21 am PDT Charlie Harrison is just off the pace at the second split.
5:23 am PDT Harrison goes into the hot seat by 1.064
5:24 am PDT Luca Shaw is just under half a second back at split two.
5:24 am PDT Shaw is green at the next split!
5:26 am PDT Luca Shaw loses time at the bottom and goes into second.
5:27 am PDT Dean Lucas couldn't quite keep up with the leaders and slots into fifth.
5:29 am PDT 20 riders are left to go in Leogang, here is the current top five: 1st. Charlie Harrison // 2nd. Luca Shaw // 3rd. Matt Walker // 4th. Reece Wilson // 5th. Dean Lucas //
5:31 am PDT Brook MacDonald is fastest at split two.
5:32 am PDT MacDonald is still up at the fourth split, can he keep it going until the finish line?
5:33 am PDT He crosses the line third, 0.734 back.
5:34 am PDT Gee Atherton looks to be a way off the pace.
5:36 am PDT Atherton goes 24th.
5:38 am PDT Finn Iles is over four seconds back from the current leader.
5:41 am PDT Remi Thirion looks to be gaining on Harrison's time.
5:42 am PDT Thirion goes into fifth place.
5:46 am PDT Bernard Kerr is 0.214 back at the first split.
5:47 am PDT Bernard Kerr looks to have crashed.
5:48 am PDT Kerr crosses the line 44th.
5:49 am PDT Ed Masters is up at the second split!
5:51 am PDT Masters loses a second in split four.
5:51 am PDT Ed Masters goes into seventh.
5:56 am PDT Huge crash for Laurie Greenland.
5:58 am PDT Loic Bruni is nearly a second up at the first split.
5:59 am PDT Bruni extends his lead at the second split.
6:00 am PDT He builds his lead to over two seconds at the next split!
6:01 am PDT Loic Bruni goes fastest by 3.201 seconds after an incredible run.
6:07 am PDT Mark Wallace crosses the line fourth, 3.785 back.
6:08 am PDT Greg Williamson is over a second back at split two.
6:09 am PDT Williamson looks to be losing more time as he goes down the course. Over three seconds back at the last split.
6:10 am PDT Greg Williamson goes into seventh position.
6:11 am PDT Aaron Gwin is in touch at the first split.
6:11 am PDT He drops further back at the next split but still within a second of Bruni.
6:13 am PDT Gwin is within two seconds of Loic Bruni's time.
6:13 am PDT Aaron Gwin goes into second place, just 2.418 back.
6:14 am PDT Danny Hart is up at the first split.
6:15 am PDT Hart loses a second at the next split.
6:16 am PDT He crosses the line in second place.
6:20 am PDT Connor Fearon had a great run and crosses the line in fifth place.
6:22 am PDT Jure Zabjek goes over two seconds off the pace at the second split.
6:24 am PDT Zabjek finishes in seventh, only 3.526 off Bruni's time.
6:24 am PDT Amaury Pierron is over a second off the pace by the first split.
6:26 am PDT Pierron gains some time back at the third split.
6:27 am PDT He crosses the line in fourth position.
6:28 am PDT Troy Brosnan is only 0.020 off the current leader after the first split.
6:29 am PDT He maintains his speed at the next split.
6:29 am PDT After the jumps he is still in touch, only 0.200 back.
6:30 am PDT Brosnan drops further back at the next split.
6:31 am PDT Troy Brosnan goes 2nd, less than a second behind Bruni.
6:31 am PDT Loris Vergier is nearly a second back.
6:33 am PDT Vergier gains time by the third split.
6:34 am PDT Loris Vergier goes down at the bottom of the track and crosses the line in 18th place.
6:35 am PDT Can Greg Minnaar stop the French Domination?
6:35 am PDT Minnaar is just off the pace at split one.
6:36 am PDT He drops further off Bruni's time by the second split.
6:36 am PDT Minnaar gains a little bit of time after the jumps.
6:37 am PDT He manages to close the gap to just 0.259 at split four!
6:37 am PDT Loic Bruni wins in Leogang.
The UCI currently follows IOC rules that transgender athletes must have total testosterone levels below 10 nmol/L during and for at least 12 months before competition.
The debates about transgender athletes, inclusion, and fairness are contentious. As these conversations unfold, please remember that there are other people at the end of your words. We expect the comments on Pinkbike to be respectful and constructive.
Specifically, please don’t violate our
terms of use, which state that
any hate speech or personal attacks will not be tolerated. Transgender advocates, social media
platforms, and other media companies consider misgendering and ‘deadnaming’ (using someone’s former name) as slurs and personal attacks.
The aim is not to censor conversations or ideas, but just like other slurs and personal attacks, misgendering and deadnaming are not welcome on our platform. Violations of Pinkbike’s terms of use may result in comment deletions, suspensions, or bans. Any harassment, bullying, or incitements to violence will result in lifetime bans from the site.
Well done to Kate for her race run, but it's just not fair on the women.
What happened to fair competition in women's sport?
But the biggest harm the transgender cheaters do is to their own allies. By manipulating transgender status to cheat in sport in such an obvious manner they harm the reputation of the entire lgbt population.
Gender identity and sport: is the playing field level?
bjsm.bmj.com/content/39/10/695
postpubertal effects of testosterone, do they give an unfair advantage that can't be reversed by estrogen supplementation? Also the olympics requires 2 years of estrogen therapy before an athlete is allowed to switch gender in competition.
@Ailmer:
"The UCI currently follows IOC rules that transgender athletes must have total testosterone levels below 10 nmol/L during and for at least 12 months before competition.
The debates about transgender athletes, inclusion, and fairness are contentious. As these conversations unfold, please remember that there are other people at the end of your words. We expect the comments on Pinkbike to be respectful and constructive.
Specifically, please don’t violate our terms of use, which state that any hate speech or personal attacks will not be tolerated. Transgender advocates, social media platforms, and other media companies consider misgendering and ‘deadnaming’ (using someone’s former name) as slurs and personal attacks.
The aim is not to censor conversations or ideas, but just like other slurs and personal attacks, misgendering and deadnaming are not welcome on our platform. Violations of Pinkbike’s terms of use may result in comment deletions, suspensions, or bans. Any harassment, bullying, or incitements to violence will result in lifetime bans from the site.
"
It’s a odd situation to face having a physical & drug manipulation to be legal to compete?
And the response of other female racers was very off towards Kate on live feed pictures tell a thousand words and all that, so it’s not happy situation behind the scenes
It’s a mess
But I'll make no excuses for becoming a keyboard warrior when people think it's acceptable to dehumanise others by calling them "it". I think that crosses the line and must be called out.
@seplavy: I didn't get to read a lot of the removed comments, but surely the term "ex-male" is not phobic in any way? Where exactly do you draw the line?
And while we're on the subject, there's been at least 2 personal attacks in this thread alone, with absolutely no consequences. Why is no one crying out for bans here?
I'll keep my opinion to myself on the rest...
If she wants to ride fine - no issues with me - welcome to the community - if she wants to race???????
Lets have a trans category.
UCI can't you do anything?
Sort this out before the Mtb community takes this sport away from you!!
UCI set the rules. She races within the rules, there fore no cheating.
Simple.
About all I can do now is not watch the Live or Replays on any website from now on...I'll now wait and grab a torrent. No more 'clicks' will be registered from this guy. An insignificant impact/boycott I'm sure...but about all I can do from here...???
The problem I have with that is the common accepted levels for testosterone in a biological female are between 0.5 and 2.5.
Say Rachel has a level of 2.5, should she not be able to take testosterone to get her to 9?
A common male testosterone range is 9-30.
I strongly recommend reading the linked article earlier on in this thread.
It provides both historical context as well as analysis of the current state of scientific understanding of any potential advantages arising from gender realignment therapy.
In fact I recommend everyone who sincerely wishes to take part in an informed debate do so. It is an excellent primer.
bjsm.bmj.com/content/51/17/1309
Disclaimer: I am merely reiterating scientific literature and not expressing my opinion one way or another. Coming from a background and education in STEM fields, my main concern is that the actual conclusions of the research on this topic are not misrepresented to people who may not have the educational background to be discerning. The internet has a mass of non-biased information on this topic, I hope people do some digging on their own.
@Thatslavintho interesting data there. Correlation between free testosterone and performance in women but not men. Without being able to access the whole article, I can't tell if it's a good study or not. Might have to dig around on this more.
From left to right getting an a$$ whooping. But go ahead and ignore physiology and embrace emotions ya idiots.
Cheating is cheating and manipulating your gender status to be able to compete against women is obvious and blatant cheating. She went from being a mid pack regional pro to a World Cup contender. Nobody can defend that, it's obvious cheating regardless of what the rules say. I don't doubt that transgender athletes are sincere in their desire to change sexes, but to then use it in a way to gain a competitive advantage that compromises the integrity of women's sports and compromises careers is disgusting in my book of ethics.
I'm not sure what the solution is but they really are ruining the integrity of women's sports for their own personal benefit in a very blatant and narcissistic manner. I view it as narcissistic because they obviously want the attention of the controversy they are creating. This isn't Jackie Robinson breaking barriers for the cause of equality, this is people altering their bodies with science for purely personal desires, and then pretending everything is normal even though they've changed sexes! Where is the shame in the sponsors and defenders of these cheaters?
But it is unethical for transgender athletes to go a step beyond that and use your new gender status to compete against females even though you were recently a male.
Also you seem to be really pushing the idea that the change of sex is there solely to win at sport and not that she was a mountain bike rider who transitioned for her own personal reasons, not sport related and decided to continue in the sport she loves.
Changing sex to do better in your sport is rather extreme and rather unlikely.
For the very few on here it has nothing to do with morals and by the way you could easily say its immoral for a fully developed male to compete within womens sport (regardless of treatments). Is it truly fair/moral? etc
Caveat, this is nothing personal against any transgender, male, female etc. Really trying to keep it to the facts.
Controversially, the current guideline states that a male-to-female transgender athlete must show that her testosterone levels have been below 10 nmol/L for at least 12 months prior to her first competition.
That concentration – 10 nmol/L – is around the bottom of the range that clinicians consider normal for adult males, but is more than three times higher than the upper limit of the normal range for adult females – around 3 nmol/L
With regard to transgender athletes competing I pretty much agree that there are huge issues to be discussed as I agree there are poss advantages.
I purely object to the continued use of the word cheating, which as I stated is not the case as within the current rules.
Spouting the word cheating just makes that person look like a bit of a transphobic.
As cheating is a very negative word. About as insulting as it gets in sport.
Currently the rules state she is fine to compete.
Those rules may need reviewing and adjusting at some point if more transgender athletes compete, they may not need changing.
Also we should just start giving lesser metal medals to other rankings, people would be less arsed about being out of the top 3. Why is it so special to be in the top 3 ? Why does it seem even "better" to be 5th rather than 4th ? There's even 5 steps on the podium in mtb compared to many other sports, but only the first three get a mugshot in front of the sponsor board. Seems to be purely a social (and economical) construct (not that social construct are necessarly bad, but I find this one kinda stupid).
Maybe we could give a carbon fiber medal for 4th, and an aluminium one for 5th. And anyone who qualifies gets a steel is real medal (yes I know riders don't get medals, but you get the idea).
This transgender question is interesting, and though I don't really have an opinion (nature, nurture and everything it encompasses makes my brain melt before I even start thinking, even if I like thinking), it blurs the points of reference, it's suddenly not all B&W anymore, the world is not simple anymore. I find it kinda cool.
That's what your brain came up with?
The trend raises some interesting questions. What if so many people had this strong desire to change sexes 100 years ago, before the scientific ability to do it existed?
What is the cause of so many people being born with apparently the wrong sexual identity? Is it nature or nurture? In other words is it possibly an environmental or genetic defect in genes or is it due to social issues that they are influenced by while they are developing?
If this trend towards gender shifting keeps happening at an increasing rate what will the world be like in 40 years?
Will the resources be there to keep up with the demand? Is there enough estrogen in the world to satisfy the demand of future gender shifters? Could we get to the point where demand is so high there are wars over estrogen?
How many other important issues in the world will be ignored because of the controversial attention this issue gets? Will famine, poverty, and environmental collapse be pushed aside while we focus on gender controversies?
I've been reading/hearing about how pervasive endocrine disruptors are in our environment now (fabric softeners, sunscreen, etc.), testosterone blockers (sunscreen again), as well as many other nuro-toxins (fossil fuel burning vehicles, industrial waste, vaccines, fluoride being added indiscriminately to our water supply) that it's not surprising how bad things are getting. Add to that academia and a medical community that goes along with the idea that just because someone "feels" like they are of the opposite sex means they are/can be. It's outrageous. The person should be receiving counseling to learn to deal with their feelings not being told to schedule a surgery and go on meds. In the US now, the medical/mental health community by law must provide "affirmative care", meaning they must go along with and support the persons feelings/desire to change sexes. Besides being outrageous at face value, the statistics aren't good for the mental and physical health outcomes for these people that chose to change sexes.
I never wanted to be of the opposite sex, but I did want to be like Hans Rey, Jeff Lenosvsky and Michael Jordon. Despite a lot of bike riding and basketball playing I was not anything like them and I had to accept that. There are somethings you can change and others you must learn to accept and live with. I don't believe your sex is something you can simply change. If we, as a society, are to the point that we simply accept that we can change sexes and speaking out against this makes you some sort of hateful phobe then I don't know what's going to happen, but it's not going to be good.
I bet this will be the next plot line for the new Mad Max sequel. Charlize Theron, aka Furiosa, driving a tanker truck full of estrogen across the desert being chased by a tyrannical despot. Don't forget the guy with the flame thrower guitar.
But seriously, thanks for starting my Monday morning off with such a good laugh. Rolling on the floor over here.
@westeast: Thanks for clarifying, I figured there might be an environmental link. What an exciting time to be alive.
What is your answer to a women who feel it's unfair? I've asked every woman athlete I've come across and not one of them said it should be allowed for a trans woman to compete against naturally born women. Seriously, what do you say to them?
For reference, it has recently become a hot topic in our state:
triblive.com/sports/biological-male-wins-ncaa-womens-track-championship
To the dude who thinks these poor people should just shut the f*ck up and either kill themselves or live a life of mental anguish like in the good old days... well, no words really.
Regarding Kate then. She loves riding DH and likes to compete. She checked the regulations and did what it took too comply. And I can't give her enough props for being who she wants to be and doing what she can to be able to compete in the UCI WC DH. Heck, I'd almost be kicking her if she didn't grab the opportunity. If she'd give up the dream to be a WC DH racer. She wants to race, she did what it took and now she's racing. She seems happy where she is now. I saw her smiling. I like smiles. I think it is good as it is now.
Again, it seems people have issues with the IOC regulations. Then have that discussion in a place completely unrelated to an individual. But even if that discussion leads up to a change in the regulations, I believe it shouldn't affect the athletes competing right now. The rules have been there for a good while, no one took offense, people built their career around that. You can't destroy their lives now.
just my two cents. people get excluded from stuff all the time, its how life works, lets not blow the possibility of someone not being allowed to race in a sport out of proportion.
as for nobody being excluded based on 'gender'. wrong. i can't race in the womens class. neither can loic or greg. thats called exclusion.
www.cyclingweekly.com/fitness/kristen-worley-canadian-cyclist-fighting-sports-gender-rules-and-supporting-caster-semenya-273796
As for your second point, again, it's pretty simple stuff, but seeing as you're struggling I'll help you out - you not being allowed to compete in the women's class is not the same as Kate Weatherly not being allowed to. At all.
if you feel so righteous to reply.. please explain how its 'pretty simple stuff', given this is probably the longest pinkbike thread ever.
Your main point; however, seems to be that because bad stuff happens in the world, we shouldn't get too upset about excluding certain types of people from sporting competition. Which is, of course, utterly absurd.
Oh and by the way, if you're going to make out you're "neutral", probably best to avoid snide little jokes that completely betray that a couple of sentences later.
I strongly recommend this as reading to everyone and anyone who wishes to understand and / or reaffirm their opinion about gender identity, biology and sport. It unpacks it really well.
sportsscientists.com/2019/03/on-transgender-athletes-and-performance-advantages/?doing_wp_cron=1560215840.4763050079345703125000
No, the topic is not simple. Yes, it is important and yes, it is far more complex that we may think at first sight.
If your reaction to the debate is that "Yes, it is simple, it's (insert opinion here wither way)", then I really, really, strongly advise you read the article. It will enable you to get a better understanding of what you think. It's a good read.
I doubt Marine was smiling at that moment, wondering how she got beat and left off the podium by somebody who has been a male her entire life until she took some pills and changed his gender status from him to her and beat her.
Also interesting that nobody has ever considered the possibility that a transgender male to female cheater could stop taking the pills and cheat the tests to essentially be a fake male competing against females. You
likely wouldn't be able to tell the difference based upon visible physical differences, and yet they would be at a tremendous advantage without the estrogen supplements.
This too, I read this morning, and it is an excellent take on the concept of 'fairness'..
sportsscientists.com/2016/05/hyperandrogenism-women-vs-women-vs-men-sport-qa-joanna-harper
I recommend it to those interested.
There is nothing surprising about a person with testes producing lots of testosterone.
This said, I agree with you that Kate is an incredible pro racer but personally I do not think it is ethical for her to race against women. It is only my view and many people would disagree with me, including close friends... I understand that Kate's journey has been extremely difficult and no one can fully appreciate what she is going through. Let's agree to disagree.
Again, the IOC regulations have been in effect for a good couple of years. People know what they need to live up to in order to compete. And athletes know who their competitors can be. If you choose to engage in such a competition, you agree to comply to these regulations and you accept that you will compete with whoever complies to these regulations as well. So sure, ladies who placed lower this race than Kate did may be disappointed. But they (should) realize that they've been beaten by someone who complies to the same regulations they have chosen to accept.
Please mind you that I still haven't discussed whether the IOC regulations are fair or not. First and foremost because I believe it is unacceptable to do this in the context of an individual. Again, this individual loves to race, educated herself on the regulations, found a way to compete and work her ass off to get where she wants to be. Heck, as if racing the (primarily) Europe-based UCI WC isn't hard enough for someone from NZ. I can only applaud this. Now, out of the context of this individual (which is quite hard atm considering this whole article is about a single race). See, apparently this is no easy matter. Which is why UCI followed the IOC regulations. Also to draw one line across different sports. And I dare to believe that those in charge of these regulations at the IOC are better informed than all us PB keyboard warriors combined. I do agree there needs to be transparency on how these regulations came together (how it was just limited to testosterone levels and why 10nmol/l max etc). Whichever way it was chosen, it needed to have been done with care because athletes built their careers (and lives) around this. And the same goes if they choose to change these regulations. What new insights led up to this, it can't just be because the PB keyboard warriors are upset! But even if they eventually decide to change these regulations, it takes a massive transition period. Because you can maybe require athletes to do something else in competition or to allow or ban certain pieces of equipment (typically a two year transition, like we've seen with the lift on the ban of dissimilar front-rear wheelsizes). But to ban people based on who they are, I'd say it would take a transition period as long as a career length. So this individual is competing now and complies to rules that have been in effect for over a decade. So there is no point moaning now because they can't turn things back anytime soon.
Yes women need to realize that should a transgender woman enter their category (having 20+ years of male development) that they should just give up, chances of winning are slim at best. Why is that? Because its likely physically impossible for them to compete. The truth is in the male / female timings listed on this topic....
1) They read these regulations and go "Oh gosh, should a transgender woman ever choose to compete I'm out because I won't stand a chance. Let's hope it just doesn't happen. Let's hope hope hope..." (passive approach)
2) They read these regulations and go "Hold on, that doesn't look fair. I don't want that to happen. I'll check with my fellow competitors, do our part of the research and propose a change of regulations before someone ever takes advantage of this opportunity." (proactive approach)
3) They have never read this far into the regulations (way to busy training, riding and just making ends meet) and suddenly they're faced with a well performing transgender athlete. "Oh f*ck. Ah well, that's the way it is then. Should pay better attention next time."
4) Like 3) but "Ah well, I don't care. The ladies I'm trying to beat are faster than her anyway so this is pretty irrelevant to me."
My guess (mind you, guess) is that it is a lot of situation 3) and 4) here. If they (or their team, manager etc.) were actually concerned we'd have seen much more 2) shortly after this regulation came in effect (and well before there was a transsexual woman performing in any national DH competition). I haven't heard of such a case and how that turned out. This situation 1) you suggest sounds baffling. It doesn't quite jive with the cool and confident image surrounding top level DH athletes.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKKa_OlSXgQ
Yes. This article is about a single race. However, this comment section discussion is not just about a single race. What would be wrong with having a transgender racing category or categories?
I know of only one transgender racer (male to female) in my area and she chooses to continue to race in the men’s category and does quite well.
As for your second point. Sorry, that's not an answer. Again, how do the results show that cisgender female athletes "should just give up, chances of winning are slim at best", specifically?
Throwing around pejorative terms you don't really understand doesn't change that. In fact it kind of makes it worse. It's the intellectual equivalent of soiling yourself in public and then laughing at the people who haven't.
I mean it doesn't even come close to being an actual argument.
And the mad thing is you think you're making rational, well informed, and well reasoned points, as if you're some kind of paragon of the dialectic method, rather than just a textbook case of Dunning-Kruger. It's sad, really.
*shakes head*
I give up. You people are helpless. It's genuinely like talking to someone with alzheimer's.
*sighs*
"If everyone’s not happy then maybe everyone’s not doing their best racing and I just want everyone to be having fun and doing their best.”
So, according to Weatherly, if women are concerned about a man who suddenly switches to competing in the women’s division, then the women are actually just upset about their own performance?
That's from this article:
genderidentitywatch.com/2018/02/27/kate-anton-weatherly-new-zealand
From what I've see just from her own interviews and quotes, Kate knows she is cheating and is saying disingenuous things to try to distract from it. In her interview after the race she was emphasizing how hard she had trained, obviously trying to give some type of justification for her instant success other than changing genders, which is the obvious reason for her success.
m.youtube.com/watch?v=LTq_D93UyRI
www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKKa_OlSXgQ
mental
www.olympic.org/news/ioc-approves-consensus-with-regard-to-athletes-who-have-changed-sex-1
Obviously, many of the concerns brought forward in this discussion here have also been debated by their panel of experts. Notably:
"
(A) For how long will the hormonal influence of the earlier puberty be of importance?
(B) Will the testosterone influence on the muscular strength during male puberty ever disappear?
(C) For how long should the treatment with female hormones last in order to be considered sufficient?
"
So those guidelines have been set whilst satisfying these concerns as much as possible. Obviously I haven't dug into the underlying studies (seems like a massive job) but the press release I linked to does give me the impression that the IOC has actually put in the required thought into these regulations. The press release itself isn't lengthy and I think it is a prerequisite for whoever takes part in this discussion. It are these regulations you're questioning, after all.
If you want to carry on thinking that the guidelines have been formed based on absolutely no research or analysis at all, you can. You'd be completely wrong, but OK.
@vinay: Are hormones the only factors that need to be considered? Is their influence on the entire body and its functions that far reaching? Including psychology? What about psychological history? The imprint and the possibly permanent artefacts of former aggression levels. Muscle's functional memory? Am I tits deep in rabbit hole or is this stuff taken into account? Can it be?
Some of these are rhetorical questions.
It's just straight up ignorance. If you're upset about having that pointed out to you, well, the solution's pretty simple.
I never said "about a man who suddenly switches to competing in the women's division". You might want to double check who you're quoting.
And again, no amount of hormone suppression negates the competitive advantage that a trans women gains while going through puberty as a male. Still waiting for your studies that prove otherwise.
All you do is call people who disagree with you ignorant without actually making a point.
a short microcosm of what happens when "feelings" meet a gang of facts.
Apologies, that wasn't you. Easy to get you people mixed up.
"And again, no amount of hormone suppression negates the competitive advantage that a trans women gains while going through puberty as a male. Still waiting for your studies that prove otherwise."
That's your opinion, but again, qualified people who have studied this have come to a different conclusion. I'm deferring to them. That's my point.
And you can keep asking me to do your homework, but honestly, it's pretty pathetic, and is the reason I'm saying you're ignorant. If you really had "done quite a bit of research" you'd be aware of the studies.
And now indeed, we're mustache deep down in that rabbit hole.
youtu.be/fK1mRsMZDN8
I guess you could watch it on library wifi, but even there your taxes are still paying for the internet connection.
It's all relative.. but yeah, the coverage sucked.
Seriously, that's not a gap she opened up between herself and the field, it's more like a full-on Alpine valley. That time would have comfortably had her in 3rd in the women's elite. May she have a long happy career and keep impressing the hell out of us.
There you go there's a whole load of stuff in the comments section to go bore yourselves with.
In all sports
Thanks yall. Well done.
Does Bruni push less hard in qualifying than other riders? That's two weeks in a row where he wasn't at the very top of qualifying then put down a scorching race run.
Great to see Minnaar come so close, bummed for Vergier though.
Rob: "Perhaps you should translate that, Claudio?"
Claudio: "Perhaps I shouldn't..."
Classic.
www.google.co.uk/amp/s/culturallyboundgender.wordpress.com/2014/06/19/all-the-things-you-cant-deny-title-ix-trans-women-and-the-reality-of-neutrality/amp
Not sure how I would feel if my daughter has to compete against her ?
Not sure how I feel about all this in general?
My kids competing against any sex ? Mmh ... challenging?!?!
She told her critics how lower testosterone causes muscular atrophy, bone density and muscle fibre changes, "which shift the athlete's physical abilities from that of a man to that of a woman".
She hadn’t had the advantage of developing as a male because she took hormone blockers when puberty hit, she pointed out.
The full interview is here, well worth reading before making assumptions..
interactives.stuff.co.nz/2018/03/a-level-playing-field
before puberty.
go check the age records. boys win. in boy/girl twins the boys are taller and stronger before puberty.
Weatherly is around 1.8m, much taller than the average female. Oestrogen acts as a height reduction. Weatherly's body did not produce oestrogen.
It is an obvious lie to claim that someone with male lungs, skeleton, etc., will reduce their athletic prowess to that of a woman by reducing testosterone.
men cannot become women, and in a sporting context it makes no sense to try.
also, Weatherly is the size of a male athlete. Not a female one. image.redbull.com/rbcom/052/2019-03-25/9cf28c8b-02be-42f5-a48d-d5a9195d7212/0012/0/0/0/2133/3200/1050/1/dh-podiums-crankworx-rotorua-2019.jpg
Born
Are you still going on about DH riders’ genitals?