14 fish in a Nanocube - and you thought I was nuts...

[p.o.t.u.s]

I beleive him.. i just want to see the whole tank

 

Yes, FTS!!! FTS!!! FTS!!! (or link to FTS!!! FTS!!! FTS!!!)

 

We just want to see it...I reserve judgment, but have no reason to doubt him...

[frag]

I believe him although I do firmly velieve that he is growing and feeding livefood daily. That makes duplication of his success very impractical for most. Also, I don't think it is advisable for people to run out and buy dragonets with the hope that they are going to eat pellets. It simply is not going to happen except in the most rare of situations. Oh yea and FTS,FTS,FTS.

[formerly icyuodd/icyoud2]

cant speak for mvp, but i can honestly say, my mandarin would have been dead along time ago if i didnt suppliment live foods.

 

rotifer, mysis,copepods, (never brine) both my fish eat frozen foods, but i do still stock my sump.

the first 6 months i added alot of live foods,(which is very easy to do) now, its just a once a month sort of thing.

 

with 2 mature systems in the house, i no longer breed foods in 2.5g tanks. i just supply the displays, from my sump with the most live foods.

 

my tanks are crawling with pods,mysis and rotifers.

[mwp]

OK, OK, I'll come back to answer some questions

 

First, note that we underwent a move, set up another tank and while I'm now 100% confident that the mandarins spawned once or twice while in our 14 fish cube, they now are in THEIR OWN 24 Gallon Cube with 4 Hippocampus barbouri (don't worry, my current plans for the fish stocking in this tank include at least 1 more pair of barbouri and maybe some sort of shrimp goby pair). The cardinalfish orgies are still going strong for the most part...12 fish currently remain (and I'm thinking another pair of something needs to take the mandarin's place).

 

Currently, the 14 fish tank ( cardinalfish tank ) holds 1 pair (2) Bangaii Cardinalfish, 1 trio (3) Apogon leptacanthus, 1 reverse trio (2m/1f) Apogon margaritophorus, 1 possible pair (2) of Firefish (the ONLY fish in this tank that HAVE NOT had a confirmed spawn) and 1 pair (2) of Greenbanded Gobies. This was also the same tank that had the total wipeout in our Tridacna clam collection - turns out that was caused by a clam disease known as Perkinsus, which, as it turns out, Perkinsus is "encouraged" with elevated Iron levels. So, the Iron dosing, while not directly killing the clams, was elevating the levels of a clam pathogen. Who would've thunk it! Since the move, I added in an internal UV sterilizer (to keep the Perkinsus at bay hopefully) and started out with 1 crocea - it's putting down massive shell growth...when the $$$ in the budget isn't being used for other stuff, the clams will return!

 

The 24 gallon nanocube was running SEMI-STOCK for several months..the only addition was Purigen, some live rock rubble in the middle chamber, a small air pump running to an airstone in the middle chamber, and a surface skimmer. The tank was constantly stuffed with frozen foods (roughly 4 cubes of mysis/brine per day) yet maintained excellent water quality - I attribute a lot of it to growing boatloads of Caulerpa in the tank as well has having MAN (10+) Tridacnas in it. Since the move and reestablishment of this particular tank, nitrate production has gone up and I'm still trying to get a handle on it (Caulerpa growth has slowed with the lighting change) - we've also changed the lighting to 150 watt 14K HQI + 36 watts of actinic supplementation. Water changes prior to the move were on the order of 3 gallons every week or so.

 

BACK to getting the mandarins FED - they're actually both now trained on frozen foods. The female has a vigorous appetite, the male is still a bit more hesitant at times and thus isn't packing on the pounds like the female does. In a nutshell, I started down the "mandarin diner" road but actually had perhaps a simpler method sprout from that.

 

So, my suggestion, based on my experiences, would perhaps be to try this. Separate the mandarin into a "breeder net" - this small area keeps them in constant contact with anything you add. Start with enriched adult live brine. When they're taking this with gusto, start adding in frozen brine WHEN YOU FEED the live brine. What happened in our breeder net is that the live brine typically got pulled to one panel of the container by the external water currents...the mandarins got in a habit of pecking the live brine off the netting. The frozen brine does virtually the same thing as the live stuff...it looks the same, probably smells similar, and stuck to the side of the net just like the live stuff. The ONLY THING frozen brine DOESN'T do is MOVE or try to swim.

 

At every feeding, I took a while to observe. Once I started seeing the mandarins take the frozen brine from the sides of their little "cage", I simply slowly weened them off the live brine, adding less and less. Sometimes they were a bit reluctant to feed on the frozen stuff, and I might have to spur their appetites or supplment some adult brine back into the net, but eventually BOTH our mandarins "got it". Both mandarins will actually take frozen brine from the water column now. I'd say the female stayed in the net pen for almost 2 months (the female got the pen treatment initially after a fight with the male about 1 month into their stay here)...the male who still doesn't feed quite as eagerly only got 2-3 weeks in the pen. While he was out and about in the tank going solo, he was slowly losing weight while the female was getting nice and fat.

 

While I DO raise a fair amount of live foods (i.e. I have two 1 gallon Tiggerpod cultures going) I don't offer them very often. We do also get tremendous amounts of amphipods from the sponges in the first chambers of our cubes...I've found the best way to harvest these is to squeeze out the sponges in tank water (I only do 1 of the total 3 at any given maintenance) and then pour this dirty mess through a regular fish net (brine shrimp nets are too fine and capture to much detritus). On any given harvest, I'll get 50+ amphipods. When I do this, I throw 'em into the tank with the mandarins...most all go and hide but I'm sure this supplementation doesn't hurt - so maybe the mandarins get an "influx" of live amphipods twice a month. I probably harvest tiggerpods and place a batch into the mandarin's tank maybe twice a month as well. Again, the live foods are all supplemental and like everyone pretty much says, if that was ALL I was doing it probably wouldn't be enough. Once I got the mandarins on frozen brine the female really started bulking up (and I use nothing but various enriched types sold by Hikari and SFB, + I soak with vitamins and/or selcon) - I'm confident that the frozen food training is what's at the root of the success.

 

And yes, as I actually posted in one of my prior reports, it's not like I'm posting this to encourage every new nano-reefer to put 10+ fish in a 24 gallon tank and expect success Simply a reminder to not jump to conclusions and flame folks who are trying something different, AND to remember that there definitely aren't any true "RULES" out there...most everything you come across are good GUIDELINES. In this case, I've been keeping marine fish on and off for 18 years, ran a Cichlid hatchery, and worked in the aquarium industry for 10+ years. I put a fair amount of thought into the tanks prior to setup, and I have tons of experience keeping fish stocked at very high levels (again, due to the hatchery/aquarium shop experiences). Perhaps the other part is that I'm not afraid to make a mistake or two...the gambles so far have usually paid off (but I'm still ticked about all the Tridacnas!)

 

Anyway, back to the mandarins...due to the time constraints (easter weekend was spent 10 hours north of here) the eggs got collected, thrown in a specimen cup with an air feed and left alone for 3 days. Not to my surprise, I came back this evening to find that almost all of them have fungused. I'm going to give them a more detailed look tomorrow evening, but for now I think this spawn is a bust! Keep an eye on the fish breeding forum over at reef central...I'll be keeping an ongoing breeding log there. According to the literature I've been able to get my hands on, the next spawning could occur as soon as a week or as long as a few months from now!

 

Good luck with all your fishy endevours!

 

MP

[mwp]

OK, some pictures. BTW, what the heck is "FTS"? Fish Tank Shots? First Time Spawning?

 

This first picture is a side view of the mandarin's NEW home (the tank I finally WITNESSED their spawning in). BTW, since I know someone out there is going to try to flame me for something, please note that my TIME estimates are just that, ESTIMATES ('cause I'm sure someone out there is no doubt smart enough to come back and say "how did they spawn 2 times if they spent most of their time separated in nets?!"). Well, if I need to, I can go back to my written records...my aforementioned accounts are off the cuff, so don't even bother makin' me drag out the big guns!

 

I'm still digging around to find a picture of our good 'ole cardinalfish /clam tank when the mandarins lived in it..I'll post it shortly.

 

MP

[mwp]

AHA! Found a picture of our 14-fish 24 gallon cube from 12-30-05 If you look closely you can find a fair amount of the fish in the picture. Absent from view are the 2 firefish, 1 of the GBG's, and the 2 Mandarins (but I think I can make one out through the caulpera on the upper right). As it so often goes, at any given moment SOME of the fish are hiding or otherwise out of view!

 

MP

[non-photosynt]

MVP, can you elaborate a little about maintaining water quality with heavy feeding - filters, protein skimmer, or else, how and when do you remove excess of the food? Please. From your description it seems that tank goes filterless - like a miracle.

I have the heavy feeders, feed them less, vacuum sand after feeding, have live rock, purigen and filter floss, and still have a problem with water quality. Will macroalgae help? Can't afford Tridacnas, unfortunately. Currently have only chaeto in tank. And how you deal with caulerpa when it starts to reproduce?

Any information will be greatly appreciated.

[firefishbrain]

coincedentally is there any fixed way to get madrins to feed on frozen or pellet, is it luck or some secret that only a chosed few know about. I obviously realize it requires tons of dedication and work but still. if you can get madrins to mate, would it be possible to raise them on frozen food? much like other captive bred fish.

[Fishfreak218]

LOVE those H. Barbouri's srry for being a PITA but can i see a FTS (full tank shot) of the H. Barbouri tank (seahorse)? Where did u get them? Are they captive bred? Have you bread them? or do you plan on breeding them?

[Caesar777]

firefishbrain - No, else there would be more than just a small fraction of people that have success in feeding frozen to dragonets.

 

OP, congrats on the tank. Looks very nice.

[FateX9]

beautiful

[mattie]

I like it when people break the rules but.....

it looks more like a algae cube to me

post more pics please

if everything is doing fine after all this time you must be doing something right..

but 14 fish in 24g of water must be difficult to keep clean and healthy

what other filtration do you have besides all the calurpa and macro algae?

[CGNano]

That is a gorgeous tank.

 

The plants must have a lot to do with your success, along with the Xenia!

[ebin]

more up to date pics with a bit more "pop"=more believers.

[mwp]

non-photosynt - "MVP, can you elaborate a little about maintaining water quality with heavy feeding - filters, protein skimmer, or else, how and when do you remove excess of the food? Please. From your description it seems that tank goes filterless - like a miracle. "

 

Hardly, see my long rundown above. Weekly water changes, purigen, and all the nitrogen fixing life in the tank (i.e. caulerpa, tridacnas etc...). Plus live sand...you do get some denitrification from that. It's probably worthwhile to mention that very little food was left uneaten...feeding slowly ensured that more goes into the guts and gets digestedted....less rotting in the tank.

 

firefishbrain - there's a whole big detailed explanation of how I trained the mandarins onto frozen foods above. Start with good healthy fish and have plenty of live foods on hand to keep the fish going during the process. It all starts by getting them to eat first, then slowly making the shift. Don't let the difficulty discourage you if you're ready to make the dedicated effort.

 

Fishfreak218 - the side shot above with all the gorgonians isn't enough? 1 Pair of the barbouri came from ocean Rider. The other pair from Seahorsesource.com. Unfortunately we had a seahorse loss this evening...our little female never really ate well and after 1 month kicked the bucket. I kinda expected it, but Dan and I tried all sorts of ideas to get her to feed. Sounds like she was just the "runt" of the litter. Of course I plan on breeding them...pretty much I try to buy everything in a least pairs to at least get a shot at reproduction.

 

mattie - 1 run 3 24 G. Cubes and 1 6 G. cube in total. All are run with ALL the foam and ceramic in place. Activiated carbon, Black Diamond, is changed monthly. Purigen is used. I also fill the remaining area in the 2nd chamber with live rock rubble. "Live" sand is used in all the tanks. Surface skimmers have been added to all the tanks. Nutrient export comes in the form of routine water changes and harvesting of caulerpa and frags.

 

ebin - would love to add more pics, but I'm about 2 months behind in updating a website, have 4 fly rods to build by June 1, and 2 mouthfulls of cardinalfish to deal with right now, and somewhere in all that I wouldn't be surprised to find a spontaneous hatch of GreenBanded Gobies...they're overdue! If getting spawns out of GBG's, Bangais, A. margaritophorus, A. leptacanthus AND the Mandarins all in the tank isn't proof enough, I don't know what else is, and honestly, it's not like I'm trying to build up a flock...folks can believe or not...makes no difference to me

 

UPDATE - well, since the last mandarin spawn there has been some courtship between the two but the female is obviously not ready yet. She's getting fatter by the day, so it's only a matter of time. Meanwhile, our "14" fish tank is currently running at only 12 fish...I'm looking every day for that perfect pair of something else to try in there (currently really wanting to try either a pair of Centropyge argi or the African Flameback...hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm).

 

Keep an eye on the Reef Central thread if you're interested in the Mandarin Breeding...I've purchased most of the materials I'll need to get a kriesel going for egg incubation next time around.

 

MP

[jeremai]

(currently really wanting to try either a pair of Centropyge argi or the African Flameback...hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm).

That frightens me a bit, then I remember the things you've accomplished, and I don't get so uptight. Although, the tank is kinda packed as far as swimming room, and Centropyge's love to swim. No real hope of breeding them in such a small tank, either - they need LOTS of verticle room (4-6 feet or so, I believe) for that. I've also never seen them paired in the wild - only in harems.

 

But good luck, I love your tanks. Keep us posted!

[RP Beesh]

love the pix

[mwp]

That frightens me a bit, then I remember the things you've accomplished, and I don't get so uptight. Although, the tank is kinda packed as far as swimming room, and Centropyge's love to swim. No real hope of breeding them in such a small tank, either - they need LOTS of verticle room (4-6 feet or so, I believe) for that. I've also never seen them paired in the wild - only in harems.

 

But good luck, I love your tanks. Keep us posted!

 

Jeremai - I actually had a client spawning C. argi as a pair in a 90 gallon Oceanic Reef 10 years ago - nowhere near 4-6 feet in height. Considering that argi is the smallest species, if ANY of them have ANY hope of spawning in a 24 gallon cube, that'd be the species Granted, I know what I'm up against...should probably figure out the Mandarins first (got the kreisel set up...doens't look good on spawn #2 after 3 days).

 

MP

[jeremai]

Jeremai - I actually had a client spawning C. argi as a pair in a 90 gallon Oceanic Reef 10 years ago - nowhere near 4-6 feet in height. Considering that argi is the smallest species, if ANY of them have ANY hope of spawning in a 24 gallon cube, that'd be the species Granted, I know what I'm up against...should probably figure out the Mandarins first (got the kreisel set up...doens't look good on spawn #2 after 3 days).

 

MP

Well, if anyone can do it, you can. Good luck!

[non-photosynt]

mwp. please post a little more about how you keep water quality with such bioload. Thanks!

[mwp]

mwp. please post a little more about how you keep water quality with such bioload. Thanks!

 

Well, as I've mentioned before, a good live sand bed, lots of caulerpa and xenia, giant clams, purigen, and of course, water changes

 

I'd say the biggest thing that plays a role in water quality is HOW I feed. I've found that if I just haphazardly dump food in, a lot goes by unnoticed and nitrates start creeping up. On the flipside, if you slowly feed, over the course of several minutes, and keep the feedings smaller and more frequent, less food ends up rotting and more of that "engery" ends up as fish mass and energy instead of nitrates.

 

More to come...

 

Matt

 

Another snub to all the naysayers - 14 hour old Mandarinfish, egg shell, and likely infertile egg

 

 

MP

[SanDiegoIllini]

More to come...

 

Matt

 

Another snub to all the naysayers - 14 hour old Mandarinfish, egg shell, and likely infertile egg

 

 

MP

I never said 'nay', but that is a very cool picture. Nice zoom!

[mwp]

36 hours post spawn

 

 

MP

[Tony]

Awesome tank. A guy I know at a high end LFS has a 12 gallon cube with a watchman goby, red dragonet and a mandarin and they are all doing great. I've seen a lot of mandarin's, pipe fish and seahorses welcoming Cyclopes which would lead me to believe that it might be a prepared food that these species might accept.

[Caesar777]

You know African Flamebacks get larger than the argis, right? And both species are also pretty boistrous, especially toward small, passive fish like cardinals and dragonets.